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To read more! Breathe of fresh air.I would offer my own.Same build design.3 fighter 12 bard 5 ranger36 tempest30 warchanter13 defenderTake magical training featFree heavy armor featOne extra featAlso, why take GC feat?
Its a lose of DPs when twf especially with dod.A few considerations about the changes you want to make. However, if the changes suit your style better, by all means rock on!If you go heavy armor how are you mitigating down the 35% ASF? The best you can do without Eldritch Knight is 30% (15% Augment and 15% Fluid Alacrity form Drow and Elven trees) So 5% of the time if you use a Cure spell you're going to fail and as luck would have it, it's always when you need that burst of healing to go off right that second.If you plan to take Rejuv Cocoon, as I said it's a DPS loss or Defense loss if you remove Brace and you'll need Empower Healing to make it bigger. Also when champions hit you for 500+ damage even without doublestrike that temp 150 HP most likely isn't going to save you.
Personally I prefer Maximize as it works with other spells.Magical Training, IMHO is a waste of a feat slot, not when it's available for 3 AP (technically 4 if you count the point into the first Spellsinger Core) It grants you a bonus 80 SP and some light regen, worth it for a few AP but not as an entire feat. (again these are my opinions, YMMV)Just remember what you're losing out for not having 15 Bard (5th level spells, spell points, GH because unless they changed something the GH song out of WC does NOT grant the fear immunity, longer song duration especially since you have no plans to take anything from the SS tree and 1 DC from Frozen Fury) and if you aren't taking Inspire Excellence, Lasting Inspiration may not make sense.What would you take out of Defender?
What would you take for the extra feat? Are you thinking of adding a ranged component to the build or are you looking at different weapons (which will require changes out of LD if you don't take warhammers)?Great Cleave is taken at 6th level, it's EXTREMELY viable in heroic levels and it's another area attack (at 2W bonus) for when all your other things are on timer. Because it does happen. So I wouldn't couldn't consider it a DPS loss. However if you don't like the feat, swap it out when you hit Epic content. I realize APs are tight, but you might want to consider putting some into SB anyway; Blow by Blow, Deflect Arrows & Fast Movement (+15% run speed) work with any combat style or armor, AFAIK.
Any idea if Tempest Imp Defense will stack with SB Deflect Arrows?Believe me I actually did try to work in some SB into this (for the reasons you mentioned and doublestrike).but I didn't like some of the trade offs I was looking at for it. So I kind of shrugged and went 'well.it's completely different and these days it's like a novelty to have a melee Bard without SB' ^^I think the only things that turn off in SB if you go med or heavy armor or TWF is Swashbuckling itself (maybe one or two other things).
I encourage anyone who wants to give this build a try to go ahead and customize options to your tastes. If you can get SB in there, comfortably, I'd love to see your AP selection lists.I have no idea if Imp. Defense works with Deflect Arrows and to be honest, I've never bothered with Deflect Arrows, it never looked overly useful (not with displacement going), that's just me. A few considerations about the changes you want to make. However, if the changes suit your style better, by all means rock on!If you go heavy armor how are you mitigating down the 35% ASF? The best you can do without Eldritch Knight is 30% (15% Augment and 15% Fluid Alacrity form Drow and Elven trees) So 5% of the time if you use a Cure spell you're going to fail and as luck would have it, it's always when you need that burst of healing to go off right that second.If you plan to take Rejuv Cocoon, as I said it's a DPS loss or Defense loss if you remove Brace and you'll need Empower Healing to make it bigger. Also when champions hit you for 500+ damage even without doublestrike that temp 150 HP most likely isn't going to save you.
Personally I prefer Maximize as it works with other spells.Magical Training, IMHO is a waste of a feat slot, not when it's available for 3 AP (technically 4 if you count the point into the first Spellsinger Core) It grants you a bonus 80 SP and some light regen, worth it for a few AP but not as an entire feat. (again these are my opinions, YMMV)Just remember what you're losing out for not having 15 Bard (5th level spells, spell points, GH because unless they changed something the GH song out of WC does NOT grant the fear immunity, longer song duration especially since you have no plans to take anything from the SS tree and 1 DC from Frozen Fury) and if you aren't taking Inspire Excellence, Lasting Inspiration may not make sense.What would you take out of Defender? What would you take for the extra feat? Are you thinking of adding a ranged component to the build or are you looking at different weapons (which will require changes out of LD if you don't take warhammers)?Great Cleave is taken at 6th level, it's EXTREMELY viable in heroic levels and it's another area attack (at 2W bonus) for when all your other things are on timer.
Because it does happen. So I wouldn't couldn't consider it a DPS loss. However if you don't like the feat, swap it out when you hit Epic content.Talk about getting ahead of oneself, I had forgotten about the spell penalty part of heavy armor. And you are right the intention was not to take cocoon for the reasons you say.I was thinking about what you get from defender and the truth is 25 prr and +6 or 20% hp is not really on par with the three levels of bard that you would give up especially considering that skaldic rage and +2 strength from epic song feat already provides the +6 strength that defender could provide.For a measly 25 prr that is not much of a trade. (when it was heavy armor, between the two, for me, the tradeoff made more sense)(the magical training feat was to offset using the ap to gain defender and you did have one feat extra to burn, but as I said, completely spaced about the whole spell failure thing, carry on!). Talk about getting ahead of oneself, I had forgotten about the spell penalty part of heavy armor. And you are right the intention was not to take cocoon for the reasons you say.I was thinking about what you get from defender and the truth is 25 prr and +6 or 20% hp is not really on par with the three levels of bard that you would give up especially considering that skaldic rage and +2 strength from epic song feat already provides the +6 strength that defender could provide.For a measly 25 prr that is not much of a trade.
(when it was heavy armor, between the two, for me, the tradeoff made more sense)(the magical training feat was to offset using the ap to gain defender and you did have one feat extra to burn, but as I said, completely spaced about the whole spell failure thing, carry on!)In truth when I first thought of this build I really wanted Heavy Armor, it made such a difference in the build, that I was hoping to make it work. Until I realized that without EK I could not shave down that ASF.
So don't worry about it.it's one of those things you forget ^^If you have any other questions or ideas, please speak up, we benefit everyone with good discussions.Good luck and game on! Looks like a pretty awesome build. Kinda reminds me of the archetype from pathfinder. Makes sense because it's a war dancerMakes me ponder if a THF str-based Warchanter would be worth a go, as well. Though the problem is that all of the DC's are based off of Charisma.You'd have to drop Ranger because Tempest is only viable on TWF.which kind of drops the war dancer feel.To do THF strength based bard you'd have to go STR, CON, CHA as your base stats and add in INT because Know the Angles adds in an Insight bonus to the DC of tactical feats equal to 1/2 of your Intelligence modifier (more than likely with decent INT would be a higher bonus that the +5 insightful from the ring). So going that route would pump up the DCs you'll need. Currently I'm about an 80% effective rate, which is pretty okay since it wasn't a main focus of the build.Hope that helps.
So the WC attacks count as for the purposes of Know the Angles? That's good to know.I think you could build a strong THF WC off a Bard 15 / Fighter 3 +2 platform. It might be interesting to go INT-based via Harper and drop STR to the minimum needed for THF feats (hopefully. So the WC attacks count as for the purposes of Know the Angles? That's good to know.I think you could build a strong THF WC off a Bard 15 / Fighter 3 +2 platform. It might be interesting to go INT-based via Harper and drop STR to the minimum needed for THF feats (hopefully.
I like the build, but I would miss T5 WC too much to really consider it. Plus, I really like to be able to do traps.That said I think that on a WC TWF is really better that SWF. When Lamania was up I did some DPS tests in eCabal and TWF seemed better. Pretty close though. Currently my plan is to go int-based TWF with 18 bard / 1 artificer / 1 barbarian. I am not entirely sure about the barb split. 3 ranger or 1 Fighter would be good options as well.I wish Lamannia was up for more testing I'd go fighter over barbarian.
Being a feat tight class you'll get more room to breathe with fighter. Also cheap haste boost is always a benefit. I'd go fighter over barbarian. Being a feat tight class you'll get more room to breathe with fighter. Also cheap haste boost is always a benefit.Yeah Fighter would have been nice as well but I lesser TRed today and barb/artificer are pretty amazing splits. The first from the Ravager tree works in Scaldic Rage.
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As long as I keep attacking that's +6 damage for 1AP and 3 more damage from the PA enchantment for 3 AP.And Artificer 1 not only gives me the rogue skills, but also good ranged damage (heavy repeater + int to dmg from harper), Magical Training + int bonus SP and a lever puller.So far I am really happy with the build.EDIT:Regarding DPS: I did a EE Cabal beatdown of the first boss before and after the lesser TR. Before (15B/3F/2R, SWF with Shield Mastery) it took about 61 seconds, afterwards only 49.
There were also soom slight gear changes but I am convinced that on a WC TWF is at least as good or better than SWF. Yeah Fighter would have been nice as well but I lesser TRed today and barb/artificer are pretty amazing splits. The first from the Ravager tree works in Scaldic Rage. As long as I keep attacking that's +6 damage for 1AP and 3 more damage from the PA enchantment for 3 AP.And Artificer 1 not only gives me the rogue skills, but also good ranged damage (heavy repeater + int to dmg from harper), Magical Training + int bonus SP and a lever puller.So far I am really happy with the build.EDIT:Regarding DPS: I did a EE Cabal beatdown of the first boss before and after the lesser TR. Before (15B/3F/2R, SWF with Shield Mastery) it took about 61 seconds, afterwards only 49. There were also soom slight gear changes but I am convinced that on a WC TWF is at least as good or better than SWF.As long as you are happy and having fun the build rocks then!
It's not a combination I would have put together but it's definitely different. ^^The TWF versus SWF is interesting and should at some point try out some DPS tests on it. However like all combat builds, it's really down to how you do it that can either maximize the combat abilities or limit them.Good luck and game on!
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